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I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gatri the
tor's one labor was wiped out the far
right came second and two left of Labor
parties Rose significantly those are the
results in the general election in my
home country of the Netherlands but they
don't tell the whole story The Dutch
Tory party like Mrs ster in the 1980s
partially suppressed the vote of the far
right by internalizing much of their
rhetoric and some of their politics but
K wers increased his presence in
Parliament from 12 seats to 19 and
that's somehow supposed to be a cause
for celebration joining us as he
promised when he was last year is
specialist in European politics Dr
Russell Foster from King's College
London Dr Russell thank thanks for
joining us give us the headline uh G
vilder rose from 12 to 19 he's now the
second biggest Parliament uh party uh
should we be celebrating uh I don't
think that this is any reason for a
cause for celebration whatsoever the
international press have been uh keeping
a very close eye on the Dutch electoral
campaign because this is the year of
Elections and the year that will decide
the fate of the union now the uh first
in the three sequence of Elections were
the Dutch normally uh the international
press would not be particularly
concerned about electoral politics in uh
a country like the Netherlands tell me
about it but uh but as a consequence of
what happened last year uh there's been
a lot of emphasis on it now during the
campaign there was a lot of fear that
vas was going to ride in on this
populist tidal wave vaguely similar to
uh brexit to Trump and to uh the
referendum in Italy back in December
this initially doesn't seem to have
happened so we opened uh the newspapers
or checked online this morning to find
that Rutter is uh pronouncing that this
is uh a great victory that the Dutch
people have stopped the populist tide
that they've had enough of the wrong
sort of populism this is a very very bad
way to interpret what's happened the two
major parties uh two major establishment
parties in the Netherlands the
conservatives and the labor movement
have both lost support the labor
movement has been eviscerated and it
will take a very long time for them to
make a comeback who has made gains are
the anti-establishment or at least
outside of the establishment parties the
green left uh the party for freedom and
a couple of others which have gained
seats now these don't share the same
political uh platform but they are
united and that they are not the
establishment parties now Rutter's claim
that uh the Dutch people have gone
against populism is clearly not true now
the second biggest party in the
government is going to be vilder payv in
places like Rotterdam it is the dominant
party that they won most of the seats so
we've seen a fundamental shift in Dutch
politics in the last 36 hours from the
old establishment movements towards uh
parties which are outside of the uh of
the old click so to interpret uh the
recent Dutch election as support for
liberalism support for the status quo is
simply not the way uh that we're seeing
developments in the Netherlands what
about the point we made in the
introduction that one of the reasons why
Rota will continue as prime minister is
that he began to ape many of the uh
tropes and rhetoric of vildor himself
absolutely this is something that we're
seeing in France in Germany we saw it
last year in the United Kingdom and most
prominently we've just seen it with
Rutter taking the language and the and
the themes of builders's movement and
appropriating them for himself not only
all the mainstream exactly that matter
PR you'll recall around around a month
ago uh Ruta took out a full page advert
in most of the uh Dutch newspapers which
effectively stated if you don't like it
here then leave now this is something
that would have been unimaginable for a
mainstream party to do back in say the
2011 elections but uh but now we're
seeing uh perhaps a similar symptom to
what we've seen with the mainstream
parties in the United States and in
other European countries where a fear of
bleeding away supporters to
anti-establishment parties means that
the ruling establishment groups are
appropriating the same language so to
see this as some sort of Victory against
populism is quite myopic because it is a
victory of parties who are offering a
wed down version of the same thing that
vilda is offering so you see that as
same as populism there
it's not against populism precisely so
it's it's in no way a vote against
fielders absolutely not uh we should no
tactical voting here well I don't know
uh to the extent the Tactical voting has
occurred in the Netherlands with their
Byzantine structure of so many different
parties and candidates running maybe
tactical voting is a little more
difficult but this does bring up one
problem that the international media
have in interpreting the Dutch elections
which is that we're so used to dealing
with a first past the poost system like
the British and the Americans that we
assume that oh vus has come second
therefore he's lost it doesn't work like
that in European system so he's gained
tremendous support what uh role did the
rather confected confrontation with
turkey play did this help Rota uh appear
tough on Islam tough on Muslims did he
do it in a premeditated way to try and
steal some of vor's clothes well the if
we look at most of the media today we'll
see that uh we'll see the claim that rut
was able to ride on the back of this
Turkish diplomatic incident to make
himself look very statesmanlike very
dignified calm cool and collected maybe
it has helped his campaign and that he's
been able to show the Dutch people that
he is an effective politician bearing in
mind that Rutter still has a lot of
criticism towards his economic policies
and his social policies in the
Netherlands he's been able to ride on
this diplomatic incident but he's not
the only person who's benefited from it
let's remember that his party has just
lost eight seats vilda party has just
gained five so as much as it has helped
Mark Ruta it's also helped KES who has
been able to appropriate this to put
across his own message now The Biggest
Loser was the labor party uh Jeremy
Corbin is not the leader of the Dutch
labor party but they've been effectively
wiped out haven't they they have they
have uh they've gone down from
approximately uh 30 29 that's yeah yeah
they've uh they've been eviscerated they
still have a few strongholds left but
that level of electoral defeat in a
single day I don't think it marks the
end of the Dutch labor party but it does
uh see a similar to shift to what we've
seen in at least the United Kingdom
where the old left-wing socialist
parties are no longer appealing well
isn't the problem that they weren't
left-wing socialist parties pasok was
eviscerated in Greece the p psoe in
Spain has been
effectively uh blighted by the rise of
demos M uh the Socialist Party in France
is in such bad order that the president
couldn't even run for a second term and
Jeremy Corbin has around 26% in the
polls in Britain which is five points
down on Ed millerand in
2015 are we seeing the sun setting on
Social Democratic politics but the rise
of other radical forces in their place
this is inter uh an interesting way to
interpret it now a lot of the left
traditional leftwing socialist parties
in Europe have been accused for the last
few uh last few years of promoting
austerity light of enacting the same
policies as the old right-wing polic uh
parties just with a slightly more
sociable conscience to it what we are
seeing is across Europe is arising
people who are dissatisfied with the old
status quo parties not just dissatisfied
with the old conservative right and not
just with the old socialist left but
with the entire system which is
increasingly interpreted by tens
possibly hundreds of millions of
Europeans as benefiting only a small
transnational click while ignoring the
majority of the populations of of
European has the benefit of being the
truth uh the rise of the green left tell
us about them they came from absolutely
nowhere they've suddenly appeared out of
nowhere it would seem now I wonder
whether the Green left's rise is going
to be analog to what we saw with the
liberal Democrats in Britain in the uh
more recent elections that dissatisfied
with existing parties but equally
fearful of what appears to be uh a a
raving ethnic nationalist in another
party people have decided to throw their
weight behind a new movement now it
seems likely that the green left is
going to be invited into rut's new
Coalition uh so that he can draw support
uh from people who have thrown their way
that would be the kiss of death for them
in my opinion but well it would in
exactly the same way that it was the
kiss of death for the liberal Democrats
when they joined with the conservatives
because as we've just seen in the last
Coalition between the Dutch
conservatives and the Dutch Labor uh rut
was able to basically throw his partner
under the bus in order to gain votes
during the election now are we going to
see the same thing with the green left
are they more green or are they more
left at the moment they seem to be more
green and simply using this rhetoric
will have a lot of appeal especially in
a country like the Netherlands this is
going to have a much greater appeal
among young people among the urban uh
Elites and especially in the Netherlands
as we know this is an overwhelmingly
urban country so they do seem to have
this appeal to a large section of it
helps that the leader the new leader is
now like the Dutch Trudeau it does help
it does help but does it also mean is it
also possible that people's hopes are
going to be somewhat dashed by this new
leader we saw this happen with CER in
Greece we saw this happen with the
liberal Democrats maybe to a lesser
extent we saw this with Bernie Sanders
this points to me uh what is one of the
most significant issues in this year of
Elections it's the role of emotion it's
not rational economic politics it's how
people feel now if people are throwing
their political hopes and emotions
behind particular parties and then due
to the reality of Coalition politics
those parties maybe have to shift on
their principles is people's
disappointment and disillusionment going
to grow even further what happened
yesterday in the Dutch election
was not a victory for liberalism and it
may mean that in the next round of Dutch
elections in four or 5 years time we're
going to see even more people swinging
towards a populist movement because
they'll feel disappointed by new part
new parties very briefly doct uh what
does this tell us about France which is
next up and Germany which is up after
that I think it's going to be the case
that Builders will be able to uh portray
himself as being a symbol against the
establishment
Elite Builders is going to if he's
clever he's going to now take a backseat
uh in Dutch politics and keep a low
profile keep his uh just keep out of the
public eye he's now in quite a strong
position that while Rutter is trying to
assemble a complicated Coalition vas and
his uh MPS can sit back and snipe at
everything that the new government does
without having to take any flak
themselves because they don't have any
power this is going to give uh an added
incentive for the afd for Marine Le who
will be able to point to vas saying he
was repres he represents a large group
of the Dutch electorate who are being
ignored by the ostensibly arrogant
mainstream parties so even if lepen
loses in the election and even if afd
which they're almost certainly going to
lose in the German elections even when
that happens they can still point to vas
and say we are in this position like
Builders of being Martyrs so it will add
to their strength well um I must ask you
to come back and talk about both France
and Germany we're all going to become
very well acquainted with each other
thank you Dr Russell Foster for coming
on the Sputnik coming up next we will be
discussing the little reported Yemen
stay
tuned welcome back to Sputnik the rocks
of Aiden were Britain's Imperial Last
Stand at least until the era of Tony
Blair the British colony of Yemen fought
itself free of Empire but seems to have
been fighting a lot of the time since
fighting between the south of the
country and the North and civil war
between the periphery and the center
have now been succeeded by an allout
assault by Saudi Arabia and its Western
allies including Britain and the US on
the poorest Arab country of them all
British and Us weapons have rained down
on schools and hospitals funerals and
wedding parties killing thousands of
civilians and prompting demands for an
end to arm sales to the Saudi Invaders
David Hurst is the distinguished writer
and editor of much of the best commentry
on the Middle East and is now
editorinchief of Middle East eye and he
joins us now David thanks for coming on
board the Sputnik again what is the news
from the front I need to ask you because
frankly I it's not reported anywhere
else well the uh the government of Yemen
or rather the rump government of Yemen
is now back in the South the houthis are
in the north and in the center they
still control uh much the biggest port
and there's now going to be an allout
Coalition assault on that port and what
really is concerning me and is
concerning a lot in the International
Community is that Yemen is uh on the
verge of a major famine exactly you've
got half a million children who are
suffering from acute malnutrition you've
got 7 million yemenis who are closer
than ever to starvation and the Saudis
and the Americans and the Brits are just
about to uh close off the port now the
port is really essential because uh 80
to 90% of food goes through it so um yes
that it's obviously a complicated Civil
War and there are wrongs on both sides
um I mean one of the figures behind of
course the houthi uprising was the old
dictator
AB abdah so you know we're we're talking
about a complex situation here but in
terms of the human Devastation Yemen has
never been treated as if it is a country
it needs a major Aid influx it does not
need another Siege the bombing uh has
killed thousands but the famine could
kill Millions yeah we've seen glimpses
of it by very rare reports because I
understand journalists are just not
allowed access there and it looks really
horrific well well the Middle East I was
allowed access uh through the houthis to
S and then to the north to Sada which is
totally bombed out and that's on the
Saudi border um and the devastation that
we saw there was unbelievable we had uh
doctors come up to us and say look
babies are dying in my incubators
because uh um you know we can't get the
drugs uh it's all controlled by militias
um and and as in all of these conflicts
food distribution is also controlled by
militias so there are sieges within
sieges uh and both sides are playing a
very dirty game but the really important
thing to emphasize here is that Britain
is behind one of them yes I was going to
ask you that you you used the word
Coalition uh who's in this Coalition
that's bombing and starving Yemen uh
well principally the Saudis um and then
America and then us uh and a whole bunch
of countries who were basically armed
suppliers to to the Saudis uh there was
a very interesting court case in London
recently which showed which gave you a
very rare glimpse of the relationship
the arms relationship between Britain
and Saudi Arabia and like all of these
court cases it suddenly went secret you
had two days of uh open testimony which
was brought by the campaign against the
arms trade uh it's a case which
basically in which they said they're
accusing the British government of
completely failing to uphold their
obligations under international human
rights law and then suddenly on the
third day uh it all went secret uh it
went into camera and the journalists
were chucked out this is exactly what
happened if you remember when there was
a serious Fraud Office investigation
into uh the AL Yama the AL yamama
exactly the same thing and then suddenly
Tony Blair came down and said whoops
this is a special relationship it's all
secret it all went dead and he had a lot
of angry policemen phoning the guardian
up saying uh over our dead bodies but in
fact it happened exactly the same thing
is happening now it's suddenly you get
it to a stage of information and then
suddenly whoops you run into a brick
wall you see gy said uh that the reason
for the media silence is that
journalists can't go in I don't buy that
myself uh it seems to me there's a
willful decision by the British State
and therefore it's Echo chamber the
so-called mainstream media that this
special relationship with Saudi Arabia
is so embarrassing so shameful that it
would be damaging to us as a state if
people were to know about it but this
court case did actually provides a rare
glimpse into actually how many people
we've got uh including at the
operational Center uh where where the
targeting is done uh we we got 100 civil
servants there in the command cell
that's directing the war no in in in in
Saudi Arabia uh uh as a whole but uh
there is a a man of group Captain level
there who is is sitting in the
operations room now the evidence that
came out in that court case was that um
the Saudis are not giving us any
information about their targeting even
though uh they are using our weapons and
they're using the the the worst
anti-personnel
uh you know fragmentation bombs in it
and um they're not giving us the
information but we are certainly giving
them the arms so um there's a and and
there are odd glimpses I mean uh there
was one particularly honest Soul who
said you know in in his gut he didn't
think that we should continue to uh
carry out um this this arms trade the
arms trade as such is incredi important
to be AE it it's basically a Lifeline to
it uh there are 9,000 jobs dependent on
it and we sent a reporter up to um to
Lancashire to find out what the local
feeling was including what the Trade
union feeling was uh and they were
absolutely was like talking to
government employees uh they were
absolutely behind someone's got to do
this we uh we've got to do it otherwise
there there are no jobs that begs
another question as to why the structure
of the I'm not blaming workers Factory
workers who need a a 440,000 wage no one
in their right mind would would would
blame them what I'm what I'm pointing at
is the system whereby our our aircraft
industry is so totally dependent on
weapons of mass destruction well it's
unconscionable for the rest of us who
are not employed making weapons for
£40,000 a year that that can be a reason
for continuing to supply weapons to
anybody at all for any purpose at all no
civil society would knowingly willfully
make a judgment that that should be so
thus it's my case that that that this
has to be all kept as quiet as possible
as you know as I do myself there's no
shortage of weapons in Yemen every Yemen
has many weapons they are actually quite
good Fighters nobody since Genghis can
uh has succeeded in subduing them
including the British the argil and
Southern Highlanders and the rocks of
Aiden this can't end well for the Saudis
it seems to me um it can't end well
however uh if you actually look at
what's going on in Saudi uh all the
power virtually all the power is in the
hands of one young man yeah 30 years old
30 years old who has enormous power
originally when the king took over um
there was a division of power between uh
between bin Salman and his uncle uh Ben
na but Ben na is basically who is the
Crown Prince has been basically cut out
of the picture and is now been Ben
Salman who has all the power and you
just wonder what sort of advice he's
getting he is the commander-in-chief
he's in charge of the economy he's also
in charge of the biggest selloff that
Saudi Arabia has had all that all that
power in in in the hands of of of of one
man and um and what's Britain's role in
all of this Britain Britain's role is
basically to sort of feed the monster
and they will say well if we don't do it
the French will of course the French
would do that but that's not an argument
for continuing with this system so um at
some point we've just got to say what
are we doing to Yemen what are we doing
to the people is we protecting them is
it possible David that this Yemen War
could be a harbinger of the of the
downfall of the Saudi uh
regime
well um
I'm I'm not a forecaster I just don't
know how long these processes are going
to last I believe in the Arab Spring I
believe in a process whereby uh there is
a democratic Uprising uh which will
knock out the dictators of the gulf
including a of Assad I just don't know
when that's going to happen I think
we're in for a very very long and bumpy
process but I think that there are I
mean the other thing you've got to think
of is that for the first time there is
poverty in Saudi Arabia right we're just
about to run a big series on uh uh on
that people are going to be taxed for
the first time in Saudi Arabia now how
long before the penny drops and you have
for their own people for their own
people and and you and you have a people
that actually says well hang on a moment
if the King goes off on a on a on a
flurry to Indonesia and takes 500 tons
of luggage with him what's there left
for me what is actually going to we
always think of Saudi Arabia as a rich
country actually it's got extreme
inequality of wealth when is that going
to start filtering through when are we
going to start having more demands for
for women's rights for for basic
Democratic participation well uh when it
starts we'll read it in the Middle East
ey first before we see it on the BBC
that's for sure David Hurst thanks for
joining us on the
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Sputnik and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media once rattling gri so Dutch
elections Dutch elections Dutch
elections and this morning my friend
asked me are you relieved and I am not
actually because wers came TW second
second largest party and on Twitter
smoking hand says the left have been
responsible for this they have never
listened to people's legitimate concerns
whereas truth Seeker says Europe might
be finally waking up the US and the UK
were talked about as warnings and the
Dutch
responded well I think the last analysis
is frankly wrong
I'm only half convinced by the first
certainly the Dutch labor party has been
wiped out and I don't believe dut new
labor yeah yeah it's the Dutch Blair
party and they will never come back just
like pasok in Greece will never come
back and the Socialist Party in Spain
will never come back and unless labor in
Britain H moves sharply there's a real
danger of the same thing happening to
them well that's all the tweets we have
time for today which alas means that's
the end of the show but you can stay in
touch with us on social media on Twitter
and Instagram rtor Sputnik or Facebook
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
from me gatri and from me George
Galloway it's been marvelous
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